Dealing with Remote Work with Joni Trythall

Brian: [00:00:00] We’re back, Erin! We’re back! For real! It’s the first one of

Erin: 2025.

Brian: Or 2023 in the

Erin: banner.

Brian: Oh yeah, we have 2023. This is when we were established. We were established in 2023. We were like, yeah, this is, you know, this is old by tech standards. We are ancient. We’re pre AI. Um, so, uh, yeah. Welcome everybody who’s in the audience.

It looks like there’s already a bunch of you here. That’s great. Um, so for those of you who are new to this show, uh, DevRelish is, is a show we’ve been doing for a couple years, obviously, uh, about, about developer relations, um, about working in developer relations. And we are both obviously in DevRel. I, my name is Brian and I am develop, I lead developer relations at LocalStack.

Um, And my co host, I’ll allow you to [00:01:00] introduce yourself.

Erin: I am Erin, I am doing DevRel ish at Galileo with Roy, who’s in the comments, so, yay!

Brian: Got a little fun going on. Nice! You got co workers already. I’ve got co workers, I’ve got

Erin: cool fans! Look at this.

Brian: Yeah. Oh yeah. I, I, you, Jason. Hi. Yeah. This is awesome. So, um, yeah.

So we’re, we’re really excited to be back. And as part of our first episode back, interestingly enough, we are talking about something that matters to DevRel. Um, because a lot of us work remotely, but we’re not, it’s not directly, uh, about DevRel. I think it’s about issues that are important to people who work in DevRel though.

So I’m going to welcome, uh, Our guest, Joni, Joni Trithall, who I’ve known now. I mean, although we’ve never met in person, Joni, um, right. I don’t think, I don’t think we ever met in person. It feels like I’ve met you [00:02:00] cause I’ve known you for so long. So Joni is one, like, as I mentioned in some of my posts, Joni is one of my favorite people that I’ve met through like the community in tech.

Um, I think we started chatting many, many years ago when you were organizing Elec comp, um, And, and, uh, we’ve had, I’ve had the opportunity to kind of work on some projects with, with Joni, um, and, and things like that. So like, it’s, it’s been great. And so the reason we invited Joni, um, which we’ll get into in a little bit is because Joni started a community called Wigglework.

Which is all about working remotely. So it’s for people who are remote workers, um, and it’s trying to kind of form a sense like, I’ll, I’ll let you talk about it more, but it’s basically I’m there and it’s, it’s a great way to kind of connect with people when you’re working remotely and trying to deal with the issues that come up with remote work.

Um, so yeah, so Joni. I kind of gave that’s my intro, but I’d love to hear you tell us a [00:03:00] little bit more about yourself. Maybe even some about your work as well.

Joni: Sure. I never, I never know where to start when I’m asked this question. I figured it out that I don’t start from birth. Right? So it’s between then and now.

Um, so I, I Transition into remote work over a decade ago, um, I had my son, there was a lot of health issues on my side and his side and I had to be home, but I had to keep working and it was the perfect. Um, it was a perfect solution for that. And I also had to transition into. design and tech in order to work remotely.

I was working for the county government and that was not a thing. Remote work was not a thing that existed in the sheriff’s office. So that’s how, that’s how I got started. CodePen was a big part of my initial journey. I’ll never, I’ll never forget it. Um, it was such a great place to sort of tinker and explore in the open [00:04:00] and, and make friends along the way.

Friends that I still have friends that are in wiggle work actually. Um, and it taught me to sort of be brave about learning in the open, which was, which has been a huge part of my career since, honestly, I owe a lot to that. Um, so it was, it was exciting. It was thrilling, but it was also very lonely and that’s something I still struggle with.

And that’s another reason where the work came to be. So I’ve had a lot of different titles since then. I’ve mostly worked as a freelancer, which I used to think I used to blame everything on the freelancer lifestyle. And I apologize, like it wasn’t being a freelancer. That was a problem because I worked for startups as well, you know, like well known corporatey, like established.

Spaces that had no idea how to foster a healthy remote work culture that that made us feel like we were connecting with each other.

Erin: Corporate [00:05:00] environment, not great at remote work culture. Never heard of this one before. Kidding.

Joni: I’m dropping bombs here already, right? Um, uh, so that was a huge, and of course, like, this is something that we’ve.

All heard, and this was like back in the day to where, you know, all these layoffs weren’t super common, but the remote workers were the first to go and lay off started, um. And anyway, that was like my origin story. Like, like this, this line of work can be so great. Um, it’s not necessarily my preference if my circumstances were different, but it’s what is necessary for me.

So how, how do I figure this out? How do I make this work? No, one’s going to do this for me. I was sort of waiting for somebody to make me feel less lonely and tell me everything’s going to be okay. And, um, Give me a hug, a virtual hug. I don’t know. But it never happened. [00:06:00] And there was this moment where I just realized like I have to be this person like I have to be the person who figures this out and helps helps other people as much as possible.

What do I need to survive because I think that’s what other people need to like I’m not alone. And then from there, I kept working, I kept doing design work and things like that. Um, another part of this story that is maybe not related is like, it was hard for me to figure out where I belong. Um, when I was a front end developer, I was on the engineering team, and I was the only front end person.

And so that was really lonely in itself. So I just felt like I never had a place to belong. I was a designer, but I never felt like I clicked with designers. I always felt like I’ve clicked more with developers and had a better rapport with them. So the spaces I’ve built have always been for them because I just feel like we are made for each other.

Um, so, so that was another part of like this new found. [00:07:00] Um, energy. And I guess I want to say healthy aggression because it really fired me up. Like I was pissed and I’m like, this, this sucks. I don’t think it has to be this way. I have to make this work. Cause it’s the only option that I have. Um, and I don’t want to be sad every day and I don’t want to be lonely because of course I was worse at my job.

I was worse. The few friendships I had remaining, uh, worse mom. Worst partner, all of those things, like this was such a huge, it was like a basic need not being met. I don’t want to say it wasn’t like, you know, it’s on the same level as like water and food, but it certainly feels that way when you’re in the depths of despair, of loneliness.

So that was my motivation to, to turn this around. And I started just reaching out to people and not only living my life remotely, but, you know, meeting people online, but then meeting in person when we could, Elecon [00:08:00] started out as an in person conference and it eventually moved to an online community, which helped with funding, having the year round activity, but then the once a year conference, um, So it’s just a little fundraising hack.

Uh, so, so, so yeah, it’s just been like very motivating. Like I can’t ever go back there. It was a really dark time. And so when I get into things like Ellicott and wiggle work, it is, it is always running away from that darkness. And luckily I’ve just sort of found my people. I think that’s what it’s all about.

is finding your people. And I have, I have definitely found that and I’m really grateful for it. And I’m grateful for you, Brian. I feel like we have a really good rapport and I had sworn off podcast because I’ve had a couple of awkward moments, um, which I fully embrace now. Like I can be a very awkward person and I blame remote work on that a lot.

Like it’s It’s kind of like, [00:09:00] like the being sheltered has made me a little awkward, but I kind of own that now and lean into it. And it’s just part of it. Like you become a little awkward. It doesn’t feel great. You get through it. You learn, you make improvements, but

Erin: Awkward.

Joni: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s okay. It’s

Erin: okay for me.

Joni: Um, so wait, what was your, what was your question? I was

Erin: just joking around. It says, what about for those of us who started as an awkward human?

Brian: Oh, didn’t remote work. Didn’t make Aaron awkward.

Erin: We were awkward before remote work.

Brian: Yeah. Maybe it just made you more awkward. You got, well, you just

Joni: have to find your other awkward People right and just like stick together.

Yeah, you’re like, wait, that’s why I’m talking to you

Brian: Well, um I’m curious because like I’ve I’ve been a remote worker [00:10:00] for I think it’s like at least 15 years So it’s hard for me even to like think back to a time when I wasn’t a remote worker and it was like You know, and, and I do recall what you, what you mentioned about like remote workers tended to be the first to go back then I was just fortunate enough to be in DevRel, which tended to be always all remote anyway, the whole team was remote.

So it wasn’t like, it wasn’t like you were the one remote worker on an in person team. Um, but, but yeah, I, and I’ve been through a bunch of companies and I would say, like. It definitely, it was uncommon enough back in the day that there was no kind of remote first culture type thing that didn’t exist. Um, and that’s definitely something that’s changed, but I’ve been through companies that are good at it and others that are really bad at it.

Um, what is it that in your experience has been made like the company better at that kind of fostering that remote work culture? [00:11:00]

Joni: Yeah, well, one thing that comes to mind right away is like. The red flag of like, if you’re reading a job description and it says remote, okay. Um, I have just come to learn that that is, it’s like remote is tolerated.

Um, we’ll do it if we have to, but, um, that to me says like, they’re not going to put the time into, to building that culture and you will always sort of be like. Um, not a priority and that was my experience at the startup I worked at. It was like the engineering team was the only team that was remote. And so you weren’t, we weren’t getting that face time in Chicago, like everybody else.

And it was so easy to forget that, uh, they had to invite us to meetings. For example, and so eventually I had to step in and just say, I, one of my strategies was someone in the office had to go take the meeting remotely as [00:12:00] well. I feel like that helped them understand the experience that we were having on the remote end of the meeting while they were all in the same room sharing snacks.

And things like that, um, which I think is really it’s important, but again, we’re talking about not being able to do that. Um, so, so that really helped them empathize with what we were going through. Um, so, so things like that, having. opportunities. I don’t think I’m alone in this. I can’t build rapport and connect with somebody if we’re only talking about work all the time.

If, if you’re in person, there’s a natural part where there’s small talk and at the beginning, small talk is very important because it’s the first step to more meaningful. Conversations and connections. Like you can’t just jump into meaningful stuff, right? Cause it’s like, whoa, slow down. Like we don’t even know each other.

So it’s just so important. So like starting off with an interaction with small talk and ending it with small talk. And I feel like in the remote [00:13:00] context, we’ve. We’ve somehow decided that we don’t need that. It’s not efficient or something. And something gets lost. The ability to connect as human beings gets lost when you take that away.

Um, you know, we’ve all seen the memes of people getting picked on for like, let’s jump on a call. I love jumping on calls and. I, I think that like, what are we doing without them? We’re just talking to each other through email. Well, I really struggle with picking up on tone and emails and I need to, to experience your body language.

Like most communication is actually nonverbal. And so we’re saying that like that smaller percentage, like it’s like 35 percent is actually verbal in terms of us communicating with each other. Um, so. We’re already not having great interactions, right when we’re just typing at each other. And I, so I think that keeping that in [00:14:00] mind, not being so afraid to jump on a call.

It’s really important. Small talk is really great. Actually, um, learning how to do it well is a skill that’s worth investing in. I think, um, learning how to ask. the right questions, not just, um, how are you, how you’ve been like, that doesn’t really go anywhere. You’re not going to get to know someone that way.

So it’s, there’s a risk, um, and you have to be brave, but it’s worth, it’s worth taking it on. Um, there’s also just making opportunities for connections about talking about non work stuff. I love coffee chats. Um, I think they’re great and it’s, you know, what are your kids up to this weekend? And then, you know, oh, their kid has a baseball game.

Like, I’m going to remember that and ask how it went. Um, so stuff like that. So you’re connecting as, as people and you’re not just talking about work, which I think can be kind of like a little phony. And I just, I struggle [00:15:00] to do my best work when I feel like I’m not working with people and, and, and it breaks beyond talking at avatars all day.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because I’ve experienced very sassy conversations where I know for sure they would not have happened if we were looking each other in the eyes and talking. And I think it’s really easy to lose sight of that. Like we’re all people. And so, um, just any opportunity to sort of reinforce that and an understanding that am I talking too much all at once?

No, I was going to say this is

Erin: like, I’m like sitting here like, hold on. I’m ready for the Joanie book to drop. What is the book dropping?

Joni: I know this is supposed to be like a casual conversation and I just realized like, Oh my God, I’m like preaching at you. I’m so sorry.

Brian: No, no,

Erin: I’m like, I’m so like, this is the coolest thing ever. I’m like, Jenny, please tell me more. I was going to [00:16:00] say to kind of jump in here a little bit, but what you’re, as you’re talking, I’m sitting here and I’m like taking note of all the, like, I’ve worked remote almost my entire career.

I even did half my graduate degree remote, no other reason than global pandemic. And. That’s what happens when your last semester is in 2020. Everybody, um, get forced online in an environment that was very not designed for online. Yeah, and the

Joni: same rules don’t necessarily apply. Like, it takes more like deliberate.

And it was last minute, like, it was so,

Erin: and there was. We had experiences of people in my graduate program who were doing so good at it. And I’ve had experiences in the workplace that like, I worked at an entire workplace that considered themselves a remote async. And it was up to 120 people. And it was the best working experience from a remote worker standpoint that I ever had.

But it was because we went through so much work as a team. Like when you joined, you had to make a how I work document and [00:17:00] preferences on communication. And we took these like quizzes and I was like, I’m kind of like, whatever, personality quiz, whatever, dude, but these quizzes were like, are you someone who is more of an implicit communicator or an explicit communicator?

Like, are you the type of person who will do the, hi, how are you in Slack? Or are you just going to get to the question? And once we had these things, we linked to them in our Slack profiles. And then everybody kind of had this like, Oh, Erin’s on the direct side. She also, the more you get to know her, she does not correct any single typo in her Slack.

So she’s comfortable with you. There’s 17 typos. Brian’s like, yes, I have worked and been a colleague of Erin. It’s chaos in Slack. Um, she will fly off the radar. And then like, but the other times it’s like, I’ve been at work situations. When you’re talking about small talk, I’m thinking about, you know, I had the experience of.

In grad school, I had one of the classes that went remote was a class on, um, education and it was user experience for education [00:18:00] and it was thinking about accessibility. So how do we structure in our educational environments for maximum accessibility and talk about a lot about the fallacy that there is no true, you’re always optimizing for something, right?

And he used to start the Zoom call. He’d be like, Hey, I’m jumping in five minutes early. If you want to come in. You’re more than welcome to. Class doesn’t start officially until this time. But all of us like came in early because we were like, we just want to geek out on small talk. And like, there was something like, like my professor would like make a cup of tea and like hang out with us beforehand.

And I’m like, wait, this is just like, I’m getting to know you where the thing that drives me nuts about we’re not, I work in a hybrid environment now. And it’s like, when people show up late, but you can tell they’ve been having a conversation beforehand. Like I’ve been at multiple workplaces that have done this.

And it’s like, Hi people in office. I’m here. I’m waiting for you to turn on the zoom and finish your small talk.[00:19:00]

Brian: Yeah.

Joni: Yeah. It’s something that it’s either like seen as like, this isn’t efficient use of our time, or let’s just like, hurry through it and get to like, the meat of whatever we’ve gathered here for when, when really you could argue it’s. It’s the most important part. I think we all want to work with people that we connect with and have a good rapport for.

And I’m gonna go, I’m gonna be very bold and say that that is more important than your skills. Like, like I’m not the best designer out there, like I know that. But I feel like I’m really fun to work with. And I really like my clients and I really look forward to talking to them every week. That’s something I’ve implemented.

We’re going to meet. At least once a week on the phone and talk, even if there’s no big decisions to be made. We have to keep that connection going. I get to know them more every week. I get to [00:20:00] have a sense of what their favorite Lego set will be when I send them one at the end of our journey together.

Um, so, so, so yeah, I don’t, I don’t think it’s something we should dismiss. I think it’s, it’s everything. Um,

Brian: yeah, absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree with with that. It’s really important. Um, and I think, I mean, some of it, I, I agree. The phone conversation is like the phone being well, more likely zoom conversation, whatever, whatever conversation like.

Actually, zoom in many ways helps zoom or whatever you use, like you can actually read the face of the person that’s in front of you, even if it’s not ideal to not the same as meeting somebody in person, we can agree, but, um, but I also think like, in some cases, that’s hard to do, like, especially like right now, our team is I mean, literally all around the globe at this point, even my, I [00:21:00] have a team of only three people who work for me right now and we’re spread across, uh, 14 and a half hours of times, you know, with the group of us.

Um, 15,

Erin: 15 and a half hours and ours is for,

Brian: yeah.

Erin: But Brian and I work together. And didn’t meet each other until we finished our first project together.

Brian: Yeah, it, you know, but, uh, I was gonna, my, what I was gonna get at is, I think there’s a really, uh, important fact of, like, trying to foster things even, um, online.

Like, can, can we create some of that sense of community? In our slack or discord or whatever it is we use, right? Like I love the fact that like at the company I’m at we have a bunch of channels that are really just designed for Sharing things about like, oh, here’s my parenting stuff. Here’s music. I’m into here’s books.

I’m reading whatever it is There’s different channels to kind of connect with your co workers in ways that are not about work [00:22:00] Um, and I think right, you know That can be really helpful when you’re very spread out team that even in even having that face to face meeting on zoom or whatever is, uh, is difficult.

Joni: Yeah, yeah. And like, as you’re sharing that a couple of things come to mind, like having having video calls when possible, even though even when it’s not, you know, especially common, just when possible, little by little, you get to know someone’s personality. So. You start to interpret their, their text communication as it was intended.

Um, there there’s way fewer questions that come up and way fewer, like paranoid, like I can get paranoid sometimes and like overanalyze someone’s writing. Um, and so that happens less and less as I truly know who they are. And I know, I know when they’re being silly, I know when they’re being serious. Um, and then I always say you have to like.[00:23:00]

When it comes to remote communication, you always have to over communicate. You don’t want there to be any question in terms of like what you’re saying or what your tone is. So it does take extra time. It does take extra care and attention, but it’s, it’s worth it to avoid, um, you know, some friction and conflict and to really get to know someone.

So you have to go out of your way to inject your personality into things and And have those opportunities for those channels. Like one of our more popular channels in Wigglework is just Distraction Den channel. Um, so, you know, anything goes there and it’s really fun and it’s nice to take a break from work and get caught up there and, and see what other people are.

Are finding funny throughout their day and things like that and connecting over it. I don’t know that I should ever

Erin: be allowed in there because would I ever get out of that channel? I, I

Brian: really [00:24:00] loved that point you made about, about how knowing a person can help you, um, better interpret the, the, you know, what they’re saying, even when it’s in text afterwards.

Um, and you know, I, I, cause I reminded, I chuckled because it reminds me of a conversation I happen to have. All the time with my wife, which is like, she’ll read me like something. Can you believe somebody said this? And she’ll read it in a way. And I’m like, but okay. But what if you read it like this and I read the same exact words with this, with a different tone.

What if you didn’t use your angriest

Joni: voice possible?

Brian: It’s like, okay, yes, you may have a point. Maybe they didn’t mean it that way. Um, but. That’s so funny.

Erin: Cause it’s the, literally the inverse in our household because my husband’s always like, I’m like, Hey, can you read the Slack message for a second before I send it?

Am I too. Like, am I the aggressor here? Because he’s like, Aaron, not people, like, people who are not used to your directness. They might think you’re screaming at them and we have a great question here [00:25:00] from Ray. Um, what are some things that we can actively do as remote coworkers to foster a better working experience for ourselves?

Kind of like taking it away from like our employers doing that sort of thing.

Joni: Yeah. I love this question. This is great. It’s so good that it seems like I planted it almost. I swear I didn’t. I swear I didn’t. Um, so this is something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, and I think it comes down to, and I’ve tried to think of the most gentle way to say it, and I haven’t figured that out yet, so I’m just going to say it bluntly.

Like, it’s a lot of work, and we have to be open to doing the work. Um, unfortunately, we can’t just show up in spaces, you know, communities and things like that, and just be like, okay. I’m ready to not be lonely now. Um, it doesn’t, it doesn’t work. You’re going to get as much as you give. And if you give a hundred percent, like I promise you, you will get 110 percent back, but you have to, you have to put in that work.

You [00:26:00] have to actively engage. Um, You have to give advice as much as it is sought. Um, so things like that, you have to celebrate other people’s wins. It has to be, it has to be genuine. You have to ask people about themselves, but only if it’s genuine, because you can’t, you can’t fake that. If you’re asking someone about themselves, just to check, check it off your list or something like they will feel that even over the computer, I promise they will feel that.

So you have to figure out what. intrinsically motivates you to be interested in someone and ask and ask them about themselves. People want to be seen. Um, and if you see them, they will see you. And that’s, I mean, that’s kind of what it’s all about. At the end of the day, that’s, that’s so rewarding. And it goes a long way into, into not feeling lonely.

Um, so it’s, it’s about over preparing. So Um, this stuff doesn’t just happen. I think in [00:27:00] person it is a little different even though I think there’s a lot of preparation that has to happen, but if you see someone in person that you have sort of a good relationship with, the conversation can flow fairly well.

Online, it doesn’t, you don’t have that. Like you don’t have You know, someone approached me the other day about my sneakers, which I will talk about for a very long time. So I was very happy this person saw me and my sneakers and asked me about them. Like, it felt really good. It’s very, um, It’s a way to honor someone when you ask them about themselves.

Um, but it takes a lot of preparation. So even these coffee chats I’m talking about, if you’re, if you’re hosting, or even if you’re just joining one, It’s, it’s helpful to sort of have a sense of who will be there. Uh, maybe know a little bit about them and just really, truly listen to them. Listening is so important and it has to be active listening.

So, um, it’s a lot of head nods. Erin, you’re doing a great job, actually.[00:28:00]

I feel like you are genuinely hearing me. Um, so it’s, it’s very active. It’s a, it’s It’s physical, you know, like I talk a lot with my hands and I, and I listen and you respond, verbal cues. One of my worst experiences in my remote life was giving a presentation where everyone had their cameras off and they were muted.

And I was just talking at a bunch of empty squares and it took everything in me to just not just like, I just wanted to exit out, right? Like people really need to, you need to let people know you’re listening. So that’s. Um, part of, you know, going back to the, the coffee chat example, just being truly engaged and I always like to prep, it’s kind of like, I hate using these, these terms because they sound negative, but I don’t mean it that way when, when you’re hosting or engaging in a conversation, you take on risk and the burden you have to own the burden [00:29:00] of the conversation in that you have to fill any awkward gaps or try to avoid them entirely.

You’re sort of like a host. Which I think is a really cozy way to look at it. You’re like hosting them and you want them to have a good experience talking to you. And so it’s about, I always try to over prepare for these things. I have like backup questions just in case. Um, and just, just fully being in that moment.

Um, I, I try to think of it as an opportunity to be like. I guess it’s like mindfulness like really truly exist in that moment when that person’s talking. That’s the only thing happening Like I’m not thinking about what happens after or like what am I gonna make for dinner? Because I’ll spiral if I start thinking about that and then what have I done?

I’m not looking at you anymore Because I’ve drifted and you’re gonna feel that and that’s gonna make you feel really bad. So It’s really about just being mindful of these types of, um, cues that we give people and we want to [00:30:00] foster genuine connection. And a lot of that is, um, on us to, to do the work, to make sure we’re hosting the best conversations possible.

I go

Erin: back to, like, again, thinking about the experiences that were great and the experiences that were not so great, um, while I had this, like, really great experience in grad school, I also had probably one of the worst remote experiences in grad school, and it was the time I wanted the squares, the black squares, um, it was, uh, well, I mean, I took a class part on me, um, I took a class on, like, the sociology of Tough conversations and death and dying during the pandemic.

Yeah, stupid, stupid. I was dumb. That’s a whole nother conversation. Um, signed up before the pandemic hit everybody. Um, but the lecturer was a palliative care social worker for pediatrics. So, like, this person, like, worked all day with kids, but did not. Everybody in this class is, like, liberal arts, like, trying to be doctors or [00:31:00] therapists or whatever.

She required cameras on the entire time in disabled chat on Zoom. So we’d be talking about literal stories of children dying and how the brain processes that. And it was like, you have to steer it. Everybody in awkward silence and disabling the chat made it so like, like you couldn’t have the, the conversations that’s happening today like in the sidebar that is so, I think, important and natural.

And especially like when you’re having those conversations, like, people’s, human’s reaction, you want human reactions. You need a mental break from three hours of this.

Joni: Exactly. Right. Yeah, it reminds you that, um, you’re all in a similar situation. And if you’re all uncomfortable, you’re going through it together.

And, um, it’s just very. Very validating and reassuring and, and without it, that probably felt very [00:32:00] isolating and scary. Um,

Brian: yeah, for sure. Um, I, I’d love to kind of, since we have some, a bunch of people here, share them, because I mean, I joined, I think I saw you post about Wiggle Work and it, when, when you talked a little bit about your motivation to create Wiggle Work, I’d love for you to like, you know, share a little bit, not, I mean, you’ve, I think we’ve, Talk a little bit about what kind of motivated you to create it, but like get, maybe get more like into the actual, like, okay, this is what, when I started it and why I started it and what, what it’s about.

So we can share that with the people here.

Joni: Yeah. So, so it’s, it’s personal. It’s, it’s, this is a personal story, which I’m, I’m very open. Maybe it’s too much sometimes. I don’t know. Uh, so basically. There is this trend with working remotely that I’ve experienced where the more lonely and isolated I become, the [00:33:00] more isolated I want to be.

And so, it can sort of happen organically, the isolation, but then I make it happen. And I just shut myself in. And, um, there’s like some odd comfort in it. Almost. Um, it becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy. But basically, so I’m working remotely and then I had a horrific injury. I had three back surgeries in eight months and I literally couldn’t leave the house physically, so that was isolating on its own because I’m someone who lives for like having acquaintances and, and going to the same little grocery store every day and being friends with the staff and asking them about, um, we shared seeds with each other, like wildflower seeds.

And I was, I like to check in on the progress of her flowers, like stuff like that. Like, this is what gives my life. the most meaning and, and I lost it so suddenly and [00:34:00] abruptly and it was, it was a horrible time for me. Um, I was just trapped in the house on the couch. Um, so even more lonely than usual. And I have, you know, as a freelancer, I have clients, but it’s, it’s not the same as like having colleagues to.

to talk with, you know, throughout the day. And so I was just so lonely. And I just got to the point where it’s like, I can keep doing this, which is not good. And I hate to see what worse than this looks like. Um, or I can, you know, get back out there and try to have what I had a little bit in terms of that feeling of, um, Working towards something with people and bonding with people, but in the only way that I was able to at the time, which was like completely, fully remote and in a very low key, um, [00:35:00] in terms of scope.

Something that was like very casual and it wouldn’t require too much of me since my day to day was pretty, um, unpredictable. And so I started Wigglework, which is of course a domain. All my stories start with, Oh, I had, I bought this domain 10 years ago. And so I bought the same thing with Wigglework. It just sounded really cool, like a very long time ago.

And I’m like, yes, I will buy this domain and figure out what to do with it later. And this seems like. a perfect fit. I wanted a place. First of all, I needed the validation. And so I was asking around, like, do other people feel very lonely at work and not want to just talk about work all day? And, you know, I got a lot of like head nods, like, yes, yes.

Um, I’m someone who is very bad at like traditional networking. And so to me, it feels like a hack to hang out with people in the similar space and not necessarily talk [00:36:00] directly about work. But, um, you, you certainly get to know each other. And when I think about people I want to collaborate with, wiggle workers are on the top of my list.

So there there’s something to that. So it’s not direct networking and that’s not like the. The most obvious, that’s not why I did it, but it is, um, sort of a work around to people like me who are horrific at a traditional, like businessy, uh, type of networking. So I had a few people join and it just sort of has gone from there.

I, I, I take the community where they sort of, I listen and. I take it where they want to go. So like our prizes are Lego sets, of course, because we, we love those there. And I, it’s like a fun, we have a candy count every Halloween. It’s just like these things that I remember having in office, right? We celebrated birthdays together and things like [00:37:00] that.

And we had silly moments, but that was gone in, in, in the remote space. And, um, I’m trying to provide that in this space. So it is, it can be serious. It can be a serious place to get advice about serious things, um, from very experienced, um, smart, fun people, but it can also be a place. Where we have, uh, meme competitions, like who can create the best wiggle work meme and then you get a prize and stuff like that.

Like I always say, prizes aren’t just for kids. Who said kids get all the fun stuff? Um, so, so we do, we do a lot of that. So it is hard to describe because I don’t want to downplay its importance. In my life, it’s, it’s incredibly important to have these spaces, but it, of course, can be very silly to

Brian: yeah, one of the things I love about it, um, being a member of it for, I think, [00:38:00] since early on is that, um, basically that it’s, it’s, it’s mostly tech people.

Most of the people are in some tech and some, but it’s not about tech. It’s not like, well, I mean, it comes up, but like, that’s not the aim of it. It’s like, it’s more that kind of like chatter about like just getting to know people and like you said, advice and whatever, but you know, you, and I love the way you have kind of.

You know, communities don’t happen really or most of the time they don’t really happen organically, especially especially online communities. And you, you had your daily prompts with things that generally weren’t like, you know, tell me about something in your job that you’re working on the kind of thing.

It was more like about you as a person or your interests or things like that. And, and so it just, you know, it, it is, I’m somebody who’s like, I’m on a lot of communities and there’s very few that I make an intention of trying to like go [00:39:00] back to and be a part of, um, and this is one of the ones that I’m like, ah, you know, I need to go back there and make sure I’m, I’m checking what’s today’s prompt and things like that.

And I’m not always there. I’ve had times where I disappear. I know, but like, you know, because life’s just over. Yeah, yeah.

Joni: There’s no pressure.

Brian: Right. But I always go back. I always go back to that one. And, you know, I can’t say that for a lot of other communities.

Joni: Well, that’s really great to hear. I’m happy to have you there.

I’ve had people tell me seriously that the prompts are the best part of their morning. And I, and I just love, I love hearing that because I really look forward to them as well. Um. I, I think there’s a lot of spaces, as you mentioned, that are for specific technologies. Um, I feel like we’re covered in that department, but, but where can we just like hang out and just, um, talk, but, but not, but not feel like we have to like over perform or be someone we’re not right.

Like you can kind of [00:40:00] lay your guard down a little, and we’re just gonna, we’re going to hang out. And, um, the prompts are what has really. enlightened me about, like, it’s not going to happen organically, these conversations. Like, I want to, I want to jumpstart them every day. And then I love reading responses.

And once you read someone’s responses, it gives you all these other ideas for follow up questions or prompts for another day. Like, Aaron, I’m I’m going to write fermented Friday down, obviously, as a prompt for this week.

Erin: I love this so much. There’s so many different things you can ferment. I’m about to like apply just for fermented Friday.

Done.

Joni: Maybe you could be a guest host for the prompt that day for a fun.

Erin: I, I would be like, here is all of my weird recipes on a spreadsheet.

Joni: And maybe you’ll get some new ideas too. Yes. Maybe there’s something out there you haven’t fermented yet.

Erin: There probably is and I’m excited for it.

Joni: And I started, [00:41:00] I started keeping track of all these prompts in a document.

It’s a massive document. I think it’s like 46 pages or something. Um, because I try to do fresh ones every day. Eventually I had to go Monday through Friday, but I mean, we’re around on the weekends. We hang out all the time. Um, but I try to do Monday through Friday prompts now and yeah, it’s, it’s something, and, and that’s a resource.

I don’t know. Do you do like a link sharing after these? I could share the link to that document in case other people find that helpful.

Brian: Um, yeah, we usually, we just put them in the chat here, but. Okay. You can also put it in the YouTube description. We can put it, yeah, put it on the YouTube description. I’m happy to share that link as well.

So I, cause I think your prompts are great. Um. Because like I said, it’s just like, I try to tell people, you know, being in DevRel, like one of the things is like, Oh, you know, how do we engage our community? But, and I’m like, look, it is a daily thing. Like, it’s not like, uh, it’s just don’t [00:42:00] happen. I mean, I can tell you from, from my own experience, we have a community for, for cfd.

dev, I just, I, I don’t have. The bandwidth to like sit there and do these things. And so it just doesn’t happen. So, you know, it’s not going to happen naturally. Um, it has to be, you have to like purposefully engage. And I think you’ve done a really good job.

Joni: Yeah. And you have to know your limits too with this stuff.

Like I’ve recently realized, like I would love to have more guest prompters because for a year and a half now, everyone’s been. Getting these prompts from my perspective. Sometimes I just have like this thing happened to me one day and it, it, it makes me like, it forms the prompt for me. So I, it’s like, I need to, everybody needs a different perspective on these prompts at some point.

So that’s on my radar too, but it is, it is, it is a lot of work. It’s. You’re, you’re putting in the work, you’re initiating conversations, you have to do a lot of follow up work [00:43:00] too, to just keep, keep the conversation going, connecting people, so like, for example, when someone introduces themselves and mentions they like bikes and biking and cycling and things like that, it’s like, well, I actually know There’s so many other people in WiggleWig who are into that, like I’m just gonna ping them all right here and, and, and go talk about bikes together.

So, so there’s that. There’s a lot of just like, I have to retain this stuff, right? Like, these are interesting things about these people. And then I want to Remember it about them. So I can use that at some point, either to introduce them to someone else or ask them questions later on,

Erin: I think one of the things I love hearing about this is I feel especially everybody was like, let’s do another zoom happy hour.

Like, please. No, I do not want to do another zoom. Happy hour is like, we, we learned that that’s not what people want to do. It’s so awkward. And you’re just standing like no shade to anybody who loves a good zoom happy hour. But I’m like, I always feel they’re super awkward, especially across time zone because [00:44:00] you’re like, dude, it’s like, it’s 10 am there, but like have a beer, I guess.

Or, like, sometimes I’m on the East Coast, so they’re like, Oh, we’re going to do a zoo happy hour. I’m like, it’s 8 p. m. I’m going to go not do this. Like, I’m getting away from my computer. I’m touching grass. Um, I love that you’re curating. Beef

Brian: breast in New York?

Erin: Beef breast, believe it or not. We do have them.

We’re not San Francisco, okay? Like, if it was San Francisco, it would be like, Where’s my third AI startup? On the weekends. Okay. Um, I’m like, I’m gonna go touch some concrete, I guess. Um, that makes you feel better, Brian. Um, I know exactly customization like Everybody has those like the auto generated ones and I feel like so many workplaces added and I’m like, Oh,

Joni: yeah, you have to, you have to pay attention and know, know your audience and do, do the research.

And another aspect of that is the lack of purpose, um, when you have like gatherings, but [00:45:00] there’s no real purpose. Um, those are awkward. Nobody really knows where to go with it and there’s no clear. leader, uh, which can be problematic because you’re going to have people pop up that sort of want to be the leader of it, but they may take it in a place you never intended it to go.

Um, and then you’ve sort of like, Everyone else is subjected to that person’s interpretation of what it was supposed to be. And maybe it wasn’t the experience you intended. So it can go off the rails really quickly. So that sort of circles back to like you have to over prepare. Um, and like having a purpose for even, even like coffee chats.

I’ve learned the hard way because of exactly what you’re saying. And, um, even those have to have sort of a purpose. Um, because you really want to be able to, to shape everyone’s experience. And if it’s just like anything goes, uh, nothing will go, no one’s going to talk about [00:46:00] anything. Um, or it could turn into like event session, which, you know, can be valid, but you don’t want everything to turn, turn into that.

So, um, so it’s about over preparing and. And having a purpose for everything.

Brian: I’ve seen that in my own experience too. Even we had a Christmas party at ours, and we’re spread again across all these time zones. And they did this on this format that, like, at first I was like, oh, this is going to be a nightmare.

But they spent so much time preparing to like, okay, you know, here’s the rooms, we’re going to kind of force people to meet people that they don’t normally talk to, and you’re going to Here’s the room you’re assigned to and then you switch rooms. And so you’re kind of constantly like switching around and it ended up working maybe not exactly as they had planned, but it was way better and more, you know, I got to meet, actually, I felt like I got to know some people through it in a way that I, I hadn’t before.

So that, that’s great.

Joni: Yeah, and you’ve, you felt like the best ones are when it feels [00:47:00] effortless, right? But someone behind the scenes has put a painstaking amount of work into, into crafting that experience. Um, and as long as we’re, we’re sharing links, I would love to share a link to a book or it’s called the art of gathering.

And it’s not directly about community building, but I think it’s one of the most powerful community books I’ve ever read. And it really solidifies like your responsibilities as a host, um, and these types of interactions and what that means and what your role is. And, uh, it’s, if I could only recommend one book around the topic, it would be that one for sure.

Brian: I think I put the link is Priya Parker.

Joni: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

Erin: Such a good book. Um,

Brian: I love that book so much. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. No,

Joni: no, you go ahead, Brian.

Brian: I was going to say we’re, we’re coming up on the, on the hour. And as I mentioned to you,

Joni: yeah, I

Brian: know. Right. It’s really quick. Yeah. [00:48:00] Um, so, um, Glad we got to be

Erin: your debut return to podcast.

I’m waiting for the Wigglework podcast now.

Joni: Oh, I’ve named it because that’s like my whole thing being grand. I’ve named it, but it doesn’t exist yet. It’d be called Wigglework waves and, um, you know, like audio waves. I love it. But, yeah. You’ve got a talent

Erin: for this, Joni. She

Brian: does. She does. But it’s like, you know, she does some of the branding stuff as part of her freelance work, so.

Joni: Yeah, I didn’t even talk about that. I told you I’m so, so bad at these, these summaries and introductions. Um, yeah,

Brian: you know, we’re not one thing, right? Like it’s what, and so we talked about a lot of different things. Um, so, uh, okay. So as we’re nearing the hour, we need to do our, our, um, as [00:49:00] I mentioned to you before, we have a whole pickle thing.

It’s a thing. Um, Oh, I remember. Yeah. Bye. Cut.

Erin: Commit to the bit here, we commit. Um, or Brian deals with me committing to a bit begrudgingly sometimes.

Brian: So, see, originally DevRel ish, I’m sure I’m not the one who, like, came up with it, but I always referred to it as like, because DevRel tends to be like, oh, there’s a Dump bunch of different titles, the jobs can be different as you change companies, it can be very different, right?

Like so I said, okay, I’ve had a lot because in my own career I’ve had a lot of jobs that were Well, they were dev rel but they might not have had a dev rel title So like I called them dev relish right? Um, and that’s where the name for show came on but came from but it was like

Joni: I love it. See you’re great

Brian: I’m usually not.

I’m usually terrible at it. But I went all in with this. Uh, and went with the relish part. Um, so that’s why, and then Erin came along and she’s all into pickling and, and I was like, relish? Yeah.

Erin: Pickles? Great.

Brian: She didn’t even know the show was about [00:50:00] DevRel. She’s like, oh, I’m in. She was gonna be like, I’m just gonna talk about pickles for an hour.

Erin: It’s an element of Pickles. That’s actually the spin off show. That’s the, we’ll get there. I can’t even come up with names on the spot there. Don’t ask me. But we do,

Brian: do have a Pickle Fact. Okay, Pickle Fact time. Of

Erin: course, uh, this is like the highlight of every time we do a DevRelish show. So I do prepare it the morning of because I’ve tried preparing them in advance and then I find a better one, like the day of, because like, it’s in the bookmark folders of pickles.

I wish I was kidding about that, but I’m not. Um, so today is Lunar New Year, um, which I tried to find something for the Lunar New Year. I hope you all have dumplings tonight for wealth. But, in many Eastern cultures, pickling is actually a Cool, fun, adjacent of the Lunar New Year. So depending on the culture and how they celebrate, a lot of folks do not cook on that day, so they actually try to do cold foods.

Or cold dishes, especially like Vietnamese food, always [00:51:00] has the pickles on the side. Um, there is, on the Chinese side, it is lava garlic, which is a garlic that turns green when it’s pickled. Um, fun fact. And it’s, uh, a lot of the pickling is actually affiliated because we always want to eat food that is, looks like money, and so, sounds like good fortune and represent wholeness, which is like the dumpling.

Um, there. Is also some tie into the calendar the traditional like Roman Grecon calendar with pickling as well. Um pickled herring Is a popular delight for luck in some cultures Thank you, the smithsonian asian pacific american center for this fun fact

Brian: So this is uh, yeah, I there’s a lot of information that we talked about eastern cultures.

We talked about Roman cultures, and we talked about, I mean, all related to pick, it’s just a universal like, it’s like the universal language of [00:52:00] pickles. That’s what’s really, this is the, this is the, uh, the Aaron book.

Erin: Yeah,

Brian: this is

Erin: one day I will write the book of pickling. We had someone who came on the show who said they didn’t like pickling.

And then we were like, but do you like beer? Cause that’s fermented. Mm hmm.

Brian: But it’s not a pickle, but I guess it’s fermented, I don’t know. It’s, I mean,

Erin: technically, pickling is fermenting. Um, like a lot of hot sauces are in that same fermented process. Or

Joni: kombucha. So sourdough would, would make the cut, it sounds like.

Yeah, I feel like. Yeah, I’m

Erin: not the arbiter of what makes a pickle and what doesn’t. I think you are.

Joni: I think we’ve established that you are.

Brian: I was gonna say the same thing. So yeah, you are now uh, I am the, I am the

Erin: now, I mean, I do like sourdough, so I think that counts, right? Um, okay, good.

Brian: And you like beer.

I do like beer. Yeah, so. I do

Erin: like kombucha.

Brian: Me too.

Erin: There is a

Brian: I love kombucha. There is a new flavor [00:53:00] of cardamom kombucha

Erin: right now, I’m faring to, blood orange and cardamom. It’s like, very good. That’s very interesting.

Brian: I love kombucha. It’s just, you know, it’s, it’s one of those things like, I tell her, it’s hard to tell cause like they say like, okay, well you, the sugar gets fermented that way, but like you go and you look, it’s like 30 grams of sugar.

You’re like, what? And this, this thing, this cup of kombucha?

Joni: I’ve never had it. I don’t know if I’m You’re allowed to say that.

Brian: You’re allowed. I do like pickles

Joni: though. I like the classic. I like pickles. I like refrigerator pickles because I’m just impatient and they just take a couple days. So that’s fun.

That’s totally fair.

Erin: Are you a sweet pickle person or like a dill pickle?

Joni: Dill. Yeah. For sure.

Erin: There’s no wrong ones. I like both.

Brian: Yeah, I like both too. I love, you know, I love it’s like some sometimes when you go to Order like something they’ll put like a side of like [00:54:00] pickled onions or pickle or gherkins.

So anyway, now I’m getting hungry

Joni: Well, I grew up in an area where pickled food was just like everything like you could back in the day Like you’d go to the gas station and on the counter because you had to pay cash Of course on the counter was like a jar of pickled eggs So you could like pay for your gas and get a pickled egg to go like, it’s still weird, right?

But I’ve definitely

Erin: seen that or, um, the pickled, I, when I was in Romania, um, we, there, we went at the time of like a sheep herding festival and they, like a delicacy there is. Pickles pigskin, which is

Brian: like, you lost me.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, I tried it, not my thing, but like I will try anything once. Um, but it is like a treat around like Christmas time.

Like they were explaining to me, like it’s a celebration. Like this was like a sheep harvest we went to. Um, and they, it’s like a celebratory, like, Ooh,

Joni: would you try a peanut butter pickle sandwich? [00:55:00]

Erin: I have done a peanut butter pickle sandwich. And my cousins and I, I did. And my cousins, like growing up used to dip.

Pickles and peanut butter.

Joni: Yeah. We were those weirdos. It’s surprisingly good. It is very good.

Brian: That’s one of those like, I won’t try pickle pick soon, but I will. I’d be willing to try that. I’m not sure I’d like it, but I, I think I’m

Joni: seeing a lot of frowning happening in your corner of the scene. I don’t know if I’m here for this,

Erin: Brian.

Um,

Joni: this is

Brian: a, I’m willing to try the pickle peanut, the peanut butter pickle thing, but like, yeah, you should

Joni: do that and report back. Yeah, I’m waiting for this social media reporting back. Yeah.

Brian: Yeah, I’ll wait for the prompt that says, like, you know, try, have you tried the pickle, uh, peanut butter pickle sandwich or whatever?

Joni: Well, it’ll happen on fermented Friday. We’re gonna, that’s gonna be over. Pickled tomatoes.

Erin: I see this here. Pickled tomatoes are a good one. Pickled asparagus is a personal favorite. I love pickled asparagus. Um

Brian: I love how passionate you get about, like [00:56:00]

Erin: I’m so excited about my pickled asparagus, or my pickled She’s like,

Brian: oh

Erin: Pickled Bloody

Brian: Marys.

like, oh, and by the way, pickled this, and pickled that, and pickled that. I mean,

Erin: Clay was pointing out pickled tomatoes, and I had to like, naturally be like, yes, amazing. With pickled asparagus, and then if you pickle everything together in a Bloody Mary, that’s even better.

Brian: That does sound incredible. Okay, Erin, we need to save something for the next show too.

Erin: I will find more facts. It’ll just become, here is today’s weird pickling recipe.

Brian: We’ll have to stop the conversation earlier and earlier. So you have more time for public. Okay. So, all right, with that being said, we are hitting our hour. I appreciate everybody who stuck around to hear us go on a long, really long time for about pickles, but it was, it was fun.

Um, and, uh, and Joanie, thank you so much. Keep up, keep up everything you’re doing with Wigglework. I love it. And hopefully some of the folks here will join, um, and continue to make it like just a fun [00:57:00] place to kind of have, you know, just chat with people, um, and, and get to know people and have that connection that people were looking for when they’re working remotely.

So. Thank you.

Joni: Yeah. Of course. Thank you both. And it was really nice to meet you, Aaron. Likewise. I hope to see you at Wigglework.

Erin: I’m very excited and you’ve got me sucked in. Um, so thank you so much. I’ve heard such wonderful things about it. Thank you for joining us. Do you have any final soapbox thoughts you want to share, Joni?

Joni: Oh, no. No, I don’t think so. I’m so bad at that stuff.

Brian: All right. Well, everybody, we will be back next month. Actually, we did schedule it. I just haven’t posted it yet. We have

Erin: a, our guest will be Kelly Vaughn and she’ll be talking about it. I know, I’m

Brian: excited about that. She’s great.

Erin: Someone who’s from an engineering perspective.

And can you be in DevRel if you’re an engineer first and your title doesn’t have DevRel in it? And what does that look like?

Brian: I’m excited. Um, I’ve followed her for a long time, so I’m, I’m really [00:58:00] excited to hear what she has to say. So, all right, so we’ll see you all next month. That’ll get posted on cfe.

dev. We’ve also got shows from Ray’s, uh, Ray’s, um, Code Break show is coming up and we’ve got more of, um, Nick’s, uh, twofold, two stack. I see this, these are, these are actually like, I

Erin: was going to say your names are great.

Brian: I was gonna say,

Erin: like, these are much better than my dumb names I come up with. So you know what?

I’m just here for commitment to the bit.

Brian: That’s the value I

Erin: bring.

Brian: And then you and I will talk about what I can do with that, uh, with my, um, whole enchilada. com. So it’s gotta be something.

Erin: Very important.

Brian: But we’ll, that’ll have to wait for another show. All right. Thanks everybody for coming by. We’ll see you all later.

Bye. Later all.